snberk103
Mar 19, 04:59 PM
Auto is a good place to start, but DON'T BE AFRAID to use full manual 'M'. I have never shoot anything other full manual, except when I was using my camera to take snap shots of stuff I was selling on eBay, FM, CL, etc.
With digital nowadays, it doesn't cost anything to learn! I am not that old, but I learned with film. My first film body was an EOS 650 and then I quickly snatched up two more (an Elan 7NE and an EOS-3), due to it being film. You were "stuck" at whatever the film was, and so I had three bodies out of convenience, if you will. So one body had Velvia RVP 50, one had Neopan and the other had like Reala. Those were the days (like 2002 or something). .
I say this all the time, but I still have " A Film state of mind". In that, I mean I shoot like I still use film. I pre-vision what I want to convey onto "film", thus it slows up my shooting. I guess all the $$$$ I spent on developing and such (buying a CoolScan IV ED scanner, etc to get it onto the computer) sticks with me.
Point is just go out and shoot. I really up until a year or so ago shot landscapes primarily. I used a Rokinon (Vivitar/Samyang,Bower/etc) 85mm 1.4 and it opened up my eyes to different styles, and thus I am venturing into different subjects. Nothing makes up for experience and trial and errors. Understanding how one setting is in relation to the other will greatly help you!
I agree with most of what you say, except.... I don't get the "Shoot only Full Manual" advice that is heard here and in other places.
If I have spent some $$ on a camera with a computer and a light meter, I figure I'm going to make it do at some of the work. The way I see it, I have a management job, and that is to decide what DoF and/or apparent motion I want to capture (composition) - and to ensure good exposure (quality control). The camera gets to do the grunt work of doing the calculations. It's the back-office.
Generally I use Aperture Priority, and let the camera worry itself over the shutter speed. Though, being the suspicious boss type, I'm always checking over the Camera's work and watching the settings. That way I can step in and make changes if necessary.
I figure I'm thinking through the cycle anyway. I like DoF control, so I generally start with Av. I observe the shutter speed - make sure I'm fast enough if I'm handholding, or perhaps I want to freeze or blur something. (Or if I'm on a tripod can I get away with triggering with a light finger or do I need to go to a timer or cable release).
Then I observe the overall exposure. Do I need to adjust the +/- thingy?
I guess it's the difference between :
Think -> Look -> Think -> Make a Setting -> Push Button (Manual)
Think -> Look -> Adjust if necessary -> Push Button (Av or Tv).
Seems faster my way, and just as accurate. And maybe more accurate if I'm tired. ... but maybe I'm missing something?
I'm really enjoying this whole thread..... :)
With digital nowadays, it doesn't cost anything to learn! I am not that old, but I learned with film. My first film body was an EOS 650 and then I quickly snatched up two more (an Elan 7NE and an EOS-3), due to it being film. You were "stuck" at whatever the film was, and so I had three bodies out of convenience, if you will. So one body had Velvia RVP 50, one had Neopan and the other had like Reala. Those were the days (like 2002 or something). .
I say this all the time, but I still have " A Film state of mind". In that, I mean I shoot like I still use film. I pre-vision what I want to convey onto "film", thus it slows up my shooting. I guess all the $$$$ I spent on developing and such (buying a CoolScan IV ED scanner, etc to get it onto the computer) sticks with me.
Point is just go out and shoot. I really up until a year or so ago shot landscapes primarily. I used a Rokinon (Vivitar/Samyang,Bower/etc) 85mm 1.4 and it opened up my eyes to different styles, and thus I am venturing into different subjects. Nothing makes up for experience and trial and errors. Understanding how one setting is in relation to the other will greatly help you!
I agree with most of what you say, except.... I don't get the "Shoot only Full Manual" advice that is heard here and in other places.
If I have spent some $$ on a camera with a computer and a light meter, I figure I'm going to make it do at some of the work. The way I see it, I have a management job, and that is to decide what DoF and/or apparent motion I want to capture (composition) - and to ensure good exposure (quality control). The camera gets to do the grunt work of doing the calculations. It's the back-office.
Generally I use Aperture Priority, and let the camera worry itself over the shutter speed. Though, being the suspicious boss type, I'm always checking over the Camera's work and watching the settings. That way I can step in and make changes if necessary.
I figure I'm thinking through the cycle anyway. I like DoF control, so I generally start with Av. I observe the shutter speed - make sure I'm fast enough if I'm handholding, or perhaps I want to freeze or blur something. (Or if I'm on a tripod can I get away with triggering with a light finger or do I need to go to a timer or cable release).
Then I observe the overall exposure. Do I need to adjust the +/- thingy?
I guess it's the difference between :
Think -> Look -> Think -> Make a Setting -> Push Button (Manual)
Think -> Look -> Adjust if necessary -> Push Button (Av or Tv).
Seems faster my way, and just as accurate. And maybe more accurate if I'm tired. ... but maybe I'm missing something?
I'm really enjoying this whole thread..... :)
MacBandit
Sep 14, 10:14 AM
Originally posted by bullrat
I'm a potential "switcher" that wants to buy an iMac now but I keep reading all the posts on the various Mac boards about how even the latest 17 inch iMac looks "choppy" or "jerky" when resizing or moving windows and how much slower browsing the Web is than bad old MS on Wintel.
I'm so bored reading all the MHz doesn't matter blather. It does matter. When a brand new $2000 computer looks choppy using a brand new OS, then something is not right. It should be blazing on all basic functions. Flame away if you like, I see a lot of that on the Mac boards whenever someone happens to disagree with the party line but I'd wager I speak for a lot of potential switchers.
I guess what really blows me away is that Apple appears to be *purposely* cripppling their systems. From what I understand it's possible for Apple to upgrade the processor, bus, memory and other components without any technical difficulties.
Okay, you can flame away now -- but all I'm saying is there are a lot of potential switchers waiting to plunk down their hard earned cash if Apple would get it together. I see more and more Apple folks waking up, no longer satisfied to let Apple off the hook for getting further and further behind the rest of the computer world.
The best OS deserves the best hardware or at least a lot better hardware than being currently used. You want premium prices? Then give us premium hardware. Geez, drop Motorola if they can't deliver the goods and go with IBM (don't go with Intel or AMD to keep that Apple distinction). But pul-leeze do it soon. I want to buy!
-bullrat
Here's the problem right here with all these nonsensical rants. The G4 iMac is in now way jerky when it comes to window resizing. Whoever has posted this a)doesn't know whay they're talking about b) if they owned this iMac had something wrong with it.
All we're doing by pissing and moaning about Mhz is hurting ourselves an Apple and the whole debate with the PC switchers.
I don't know how many of you have actually spent time on a dual ghz mac but they are blazing fast. I currently own and am using a dual ghz/DDR and this thing flys with everything.
I'm a potential "switcher" that wants to buy an iMac now but I keep reading all the posts on the various Mac boards about how even the latest 17 inch iMac looks "choppy" or "jerky" when resizing or moving windows and how much slower browsing the Web is than bad old MS on Wintel.
I'm so bored reading all the MHz doesn't matter blather. It does matter. When a brand new $2000 computer looks choppy using a brand new OS, then something is not right. It should be blazing on all basic functions. Flame away if you like, I see a lot of that on the Mac boards whenever someone happens to disagree with the party line but I'd wager I speak for a lot of potential switchers.
I guess what really blows me away is that Apple appears to be *purposely* cripppling their systems. From what I understand it's possible for Apple to upgrade the processor, bus, memory and other components without any technical difficulties.
Okay, you can flame away now -- but all I'm saying is there are a lot of potential switchers waiting to plunk down their hard earned cash if Apple would get it together. I see more and more Apple folks waking up, no longer satisfied to let Apple off the hook for getting further and further behind the rest of the computer world.
The best OS deserves the best hardware or at least a lot better hardware than being currently used. You want premium prices? Then give us premium hardware. Geez, drop Motorola if they can't deliver the goods and go with IBM (don't go with Intel or AMD to keep that Apple distinction). But pul-leeze do it soon. I want to buy!
-bullrat
Here's the problem right here with all these nonsensical rants. The G4 iMac is in now way jerky when it comes to window resizing. Whoever has posted this a)doesn't know whay they're talking about b) if they owned this iMac had something wrong with it.
All we're doing by pissing and moaning about Mhz is hurting ourselves an Apple and the whole debate with the PC switchers.
I don't know how many of you have actually spent time on a dual ghz mac but they are blazing fast. I currently own and am using a dual ghz/DDR and this thing flys with everything.
calderone
Feb 24, 10:43 PM
Well, it is pretty not functional in this early release.
There is a new app called "Server" which seems to be similar to the current "Server Preferences." I always find Server Preferences to be a joke.
Server Admin is still their, but all the Services that "Server" covers are not in Server Admin. Thankfully NetBoot and SUS are still in place as is DNS. What they may be doing is using "Server" for the consumer. And keeping more advanced features like DNS, OD, etc in Server Admin.
Notably missing from File Sharing is NFS and their are no advanced file sharing options in Server Admin.
All in all, I am pretty disappointed. I would much prefer the "Server Preferences" and "Server Admin" arrangement that is currently in SL Server. I definitely would not say this is fulling featured. At this time it is a giant downgrade
There is a new app called "Server" which seems to be similar to the current "Server Preferences." I always find Server Preferences to be a joke.
Server Admin is still their, but all the Services that "Server" covers are not in Server Admin. Thankfully NetBoot and SUS are still in place as is DNS. What they may be doing is using "Server" for the consumer. And keeping more advanced features like DNS, OD, etc in Server Admin.
Notably missing from File Sharing is NFS and their are no advanced file sharing options in Server Admin.
All in all, I am pretty disappointed. I would much prefer the "Server Preferences" and "Server Admin" arrangement that is currently in SL Server. I definitely would not say this is fulling featured. At this time it is a giant downgrade
Full of Win
Mar 28, 09:29 AM
From the graphic announment it is pretty clear what OS is now the focus of ACE (Apple Consumer Eletronics).
ACE should drop all pretense and rename WWiOSDC:mad:
ACE should drop all pretense and rename WWiOSDC:mad:
more...
BornAgainMac
Apr 1, 09:20 AM
2011. People are still watching TV? Scary.
I remember Spock from Star Trek basically made a comment about TV like that. I believe the episode was called "Bread and Circuses". Spock didn't say Scary but since he is half human he probably thought that.
I remember Spock from Star Trek basically made a comment about TV like that. I believe the episode was called "Bread and Circuses". Spock didn't say Scary but since he is half human he probably thought that.
Ugg
Apr 28, 11:21 PM
This may be true - further analysis is needed. Either way, concrete roads (like interstates and state highways) are much more resistant to this type of wear than asphalt. And again, the real culprits are soil conditions and thermal expansion/contraction.
If that's the case, then 18 wheels are going to heat up a road faster than four. I'd also like to see the impact of braking on road surfaces. I'm sure it's significant.
It's all more or less pointless because if you want to argue efficiency, the trucks don't rank very high on the scale. Trains win that argument hands down.
If you really want to argue the issue then it should be about how many extra miles or lanes of asphalt are needed to support all the commercial trucks on the road. I'll bet it's a lot.
If that's the case, then 18 wheels are going to heat up a road faster than four. I'd also like to see the impact of braking on road surfaces. I'm sure it's significant.
It's all more or less pointless because if you want to argue efficiency, the trucks don't rank very high on the scale. Trains win that argument hands down.
If you really want to argue the issue then it should be about how many extra miles or lanes of asphalt are needed to support all the commercial trucks on the road. I'll bet it's a lot.
more...
bornofmac
Feb 19, 01:37 PM
I guess we can already be tracked with the phones we already own?
Rfid would give more info though.
Our populace is largely ignorant of our own governments history and thus oblivious to the freedoms that would be given up freely by this being included in our phones.
Our government is trying to get rfid included in our licenses and has been met with stiff resistance. Now the sheeple will fall for the "convenience" of rfid in the phone.
Fools.
You know how you can turn your iPhone onto airplane mode? Most likely, especially with such a hot topic as this, you will be able to turn your RFID on and off, because as you remember, you are in control here. Phones also tend to be customizable. Right now based on size only (hd). Once again, with a topic like this, you will most likely be able to request no RFID in the phone.
Or, imagine this, if you don't like it, don't buy it. Simply go buy a different phone. The problem has been solved. Amazing.
If you're worried about the government know that you're a gaining weight because the pants your buying are larger than the last ones, maybe you should look at your self esteem, or maybe you have a weight problem. Try spending less time complaining on the internet and more time on your feet.
Either way, let them put RFID tags in. Lets advance to Japans level of technology. We here in America are so closed minded and paranoid. If you're so paraniod about the government knowing that you're buying things you shouldn't, don't bring your phone in the store, or don't do illegal activities.
And lastly, some of you are worried that advertisers will target people. As human beings (real live) we have freedom of choice. We don't have to listen to ads, and we can buy what we want. Develop a little self control. I don't want to see tampon ads when I am watching the game with the guys, it would be great if we had audience only oriented ads.
So, quit buying dirty magazines, bomb making materials, listening to every ad, and thinking that we have it all here in America, and then maybe embrace that Apple thinks like a human being a little more than the average corperation.
Cheers Apple heads!
Rfid would give more info though.
Our populace is largely ignorant of our own governments history and thus oblivious to the freedoms that would be given up freely by this being included in our phones.
Our government is trying to get rfid included in our licenses and has been met with stiff resistance. Now the sheeple will fall for the "convenience" of rfid in the phone.
Fools.
You know how you can turn your iPhone onto airplane mode? Most likely, especially with such a hot topic as this, you will be able to turn your RFID on and off, because as you remember, you are in control here. Phones also tend to be customizable. Right now based on size only (hd). Once again, with a topic like this, you will most likely be able to request no RFID in the phone.
Or, imagine this, if you don't like it, don't buy it. Simply go buy a different phone. The problem has been solved. Amazing.
If you're worried about the government know that you're a gaining weight because the pants your buying are larger than the last ones, maybe you should look at your self esteem, or maybe you have a weight problem. Try spending less time complaining on the internet and more time on your feet.
Either way, let them put RFID tags in. Lets advance to Japans level of technology. We here in America are so closed minded and paranoid. If you're so paraniod about the government knowing that you're buying things you shouldn't, don't bring your phone in the store, or don't do illegal activities.
And lastly, some of you are worried that advertisers will target people. As human beings (real live) we have freedom of choice. We don't have to listen to ads, and we can buy what we want. Develop a little self control. I don't want to see tampon ads when I am watching the game with the guys, it would be great if we had audience only oriented ads.
So, quit buying dirty magazines, bomb making materials, listening to every ad, and thinking that we have it all here in America, and then maybe embrace that Apple thinks like a human being a little more than the average corperation.
Cheers Apple heads!
AppleInLVX
Apr 5, 11:43 AM
I don't buy it. What a nightmare that would be if just touching that area of the iPod took you back to the home screen. (Even the MacBook trackpads require a physical 'click' in order to register.) This would be a usability disaster.
Couldn't agree more. While I like that Apple strives to get rid of buttons, I think that there ought to be an exception in a case like this. Besides, it's a total usability plus to have the ONLY button take you home.
Couldn't agree more. While I like that Apple strives to get rid of buttons, I think that there ought to be an exception in a case like this. Besides, it's a total usability plus to have the ONLY button take you home.
more...
infernohellion
Nov 11, 08:38 AM
I wonder why in Thailand it's just a Thai voice-over of the US Version (of Justin Long) commercial. Well, we're pretty much the smallest mac market in the world therefore there's no need for the localized version of Mac... LOL
dukebound85
Apr 24, 04:45 AM
cool
my quad core 2.4 ghz with an 8800gt is chugging away lol
what flags should i use?
my quad core 2.4 ghz with an 8800gt is chugging away lol
what flags should i use?
more...
nosen
Nov 14, 10:11 AM
Wow, this is a great idea!
funkywhat2
Feb 29, 09:48 PM
I was not sure where to post this, I have emailed MacRumors several times, but with no reply.
I can pull up the main page of wap.macrumours.com but when clicking next page I get a response unknown error with my Nokia 3200.
This also happened on my old 7210 phone too.
This would indicate non complaint wml code on the 2nd page, as this is the error Nokia's tend to give (they do not attempt to display non complaint code)
Thanks
Neil
works for me, on some nokia, i don't know what kind, but it's like tan-ish and has a color screen.
I can pull up the main page of wap.macrumours.com but when clicking next page I get a response unknown error with my Nokia 3200.
This also happened on my old 7210 phone too.
This would indicate non complaint wml code on the 2nd page, as this is the error Nokia's tend to give (they do not attempt to display non complaint code)
Thanks
Neil
works for me, on some nokia, i don't know what kind, but it's like tan-ish and has a color screen.
more...
SnowLeopard2008
Apr 22, 10:07 PM
The overreaction to the Intel HD3000 by people that have never used it is hysterical.
The funniest part is watching people defend their C2D CPUs while dissing the Intel GPU.
I agree. The Intel 3000 isn't as bad as people make it out to be. If you want to play games, don't bother with an Air. A computer is a tool. If it can't perform the function that you want it to (aka gaming), then why buy it? It's function over form. Not the other way around.
As for the backlit keyboard, it's both function and form but I usually don't rely on it to type something unless I'm hunting for a key that I don't use very often. No, I don't memorize where the keys are, I just have been typing on a keyboard for many years and now where the keys are because that's how I learned to type.
The funniest part is watching people defend their C2D CPUs while dissing the Intel GPU.
I agree. The Intel 3000 isn't as bad as people make it out to be. If you want to play games, don't bother with an Air. A computer is a tool. If it can't perform the function that you want it to (aka gaming), then why buy it? It's function over form. Not the other way around.
As for the backlit keyboard, it's both function and form but I usually don't rely on it to type something unless I'm hunting for a key that I don't use very often. No, I don't memorize where the keys are, I just have been typing on a keyboard for many years and now where the keys are because that's how I learned to type.
ct2k7
May 2, 08:19 PM
The guy is dead, and not smelling like roses at the moment, so take your samples and dump the carrion.
The problem is, is that your government is saying things, then going back on it. Nothing is making much sense.
The problem is, is that your government is saying things, then going back on it. Nothing is making much sense.
more...
panzer06
Dec 28, 02:25 PM
This may just be the beginning. The article in Wired talks about "Data Hogs" and how ATT has been trying to get them to throttle back their usage. How, I don't know. I've been noticing more and more dropped calls on 3G as of late, so much that I have to disable it just to be able to make and complete a call.
snip
I regularly disable 3G so I can make calls. On long road trips I drive with a Verizon powered WiFi Access Point so I can have data (wifi) and AT&T's Edge network. Way, way, way. way too many dropped calls on 3G. No way to get through a 20 min con call using AT&T's 3G network (though I suspect the iphone itself may cause some of these drops).
Cheers,
snip
I regularly disable 3G so I can make calls. On long road trips I drive with a Verizon powered WiFi Access Point so I can have data (wifi) and AT&T's Edge network. Way, way, way. way too many dropped calls on 3G. No way to get through a 20 min con call using AT&T's 3G network (though I suspect the iphone itself may cause some of these drops).
Cheers,
bildio
Apr 20, 03:44 PM
Try updating windows 7 through windows update. Make sure you have the lastest updates for Windows 7. I had this problem too, but after I updated everything, it worked like a charm. No shutdown issues.
It worked itself out. I don't remember if I did anything, like updates for Windows 7, or if it was just related to the initial install & a one time occurence.
It worked itself out. I don't remember if I did anything, like updates for Windows 7, or if it was just related to the initial install & a one time occurence.
more...
satcomer
Apr 22, 10:13 PM
Northern Virginia Sunoco (USA) on April 22, 2011:
282654
PS - Will people post pictures of the Gas prices in this thread. This is the picture gallery. :eek:
282654
PS - Will people post pictures of the Gas prices in this thread. This is the picture gallery. :eek:
orangecrushv
Mar 7, 08:17 AM
Someone leave one available in Dallas for Saturday... Want to surprise my wife with one for her birthday but won't be able to make a covert shopping trip until Saturday... ;)
porovaara
Sep 14, 08:28 PM
Originally posted by gopher
When your stage is 3 times longer, you have to go three times as fast to catch up.
What? That isn't even remotely how pipelines work. The problem with large pipelines with many stages is when there is a miss in branch prediction. At that point everything already in the pipeline is wasted. Branch prediction failure is a very very bad thing. Fortunately both AMD and Intel have gotten really good at it as they have ramped up the stages. This can also be mitigated some with damn good compilers (of which Intel is good at making, but no one really uses).
Macs are awesome integrated platforms. However the G4 CPU is now an old dog.
edit: typos
When your stage is 3 times longer, you have to go three times as fast to catch up.
What? That isn't even remotely how pipelines work. The problem with large pipelines with many stages is when there is a miss in branch prediction. At that point everything already in the pipeline is wasted. Branch prediction failure is a very very bad thing. Fortunately both AMD and Intel have gotten really good at it as they have ramped up the stages. This can also be mitigated some with damn good compilers (of which Intel is good at making, but no one really uses).
Macs are awesome integrated platforms. However the G4 CPU is now an old dog.
edit: typos
bdj21ya
Oct 16, 06:51 PM
^ Yeah, how about voicemail? If its that important they'll leave a message. Shoot sometimes I even turn off my cell *GASP!* Dude, you need to go camping once in a while and get away from the world.
In my opinion, I don't think the "iPhone" will have more than 1GB just so that it wouldn't affect the sales of the lower capacity Nanos (the shuffle is an exception because its tiny and has a relatively lower concept).
I think that 1GB would be stupid. That's what's been holding back Music phones the most in my opinion.
In my opinion, I don't think the "iPhone" will have more than 1GB just so that it wouldn't affect the sales of the lower capacity Nanos (the shuffle is an exception because its tiny and has a relatively lower concept).
I think that 1GB would be stupid. That's what's been holding back Music phones the most in my opinion.
TXCraig
Jun 11, 09:53 AM
Why on earth did T-Mobile decide to build out a network that was so strange that no one else isues it and basically phones are going to have custom radios in them to work.
If T-Moblie used more of a stardard frequency, they would be running MILLIONS of iPhones right now even though you can't buy one from T-Mobile.
If T-Moblie used more of a stardard frequency, they would be running MILLIONS of iPhones right now even though you can't buy one from T-Mobile.
wpotere
Apr 1, 06:45 AM
I when to France once before. I remember the cheapest gas had an octane rating of 95 or so, the next level up was 98 octane. I'm assuming that regular in the UK is around 95 octane as well? That tops what get. Our gas starts at 87 octane and tops out at 93 octane for so called premium (about $0.40 per gallon more than regular where I'm at).
Anyhow, judging by how our gas is priced, it's about 2x what we pay here in the States. You win some (having better cars), you lose some (higher priced gas).
Octane ratings are calculated differently in Europe than they are here in the USA. MON versus RON and AKI....
In the USA the number we see is the AKI (Anti Knock Index) and our 93 - 94 is equivalent with Europe 98. Here is a good read on it...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octane_rating
That being said, I did live in Germany for 4 years and remember paying 9 to 10 dollars a gallon for gas. Most of that was tax, but I didn't mind paynig it because the roads are awesome.
Anyhow, judging by how our gas is priced, it's about 2x what we pay here in the States. You win some (having better cars), you lose some (higher priced gas).
Octane ratings are calculated differently in Europe than they are here in the USA. MON versus RON and AKI....
In the USA the number we see is the AKI (Anti Knock Index) and our 93 - 94 is equivalent with Europe 98. Here is a good read on it...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octane_rating
That being said, I did live in Germany for 4 years and remember paying 9 to 10 dollars a gallon for gas. Most of that was tax, but I didn't mind paynig it because the roads are awesome.
rdlink
Apr 15, 04:27 AM
How much does a job like this pay? Looks like Microsoft has a Data Center Manager position open. Maybe I'll apply. How hard can it be?
Just the fact that you asked the question means you're not qualified. Does that clear it up for you?
Just the fact that you asked the question means you're not qualified. Does that clear it up for you?
Arran
Mar 26, 05:15 PM
Schmidt: Hey Steve, you think a quarter's an okay tip? I mean, it's only a latte.
Steve: Pffft. No wonder you're rich.
Schmidt: (Looks around furtively. Whispers.) All in pennies - so it looks bigger. Yeah?
Steve: They'll count it, dummy!
Schmidt: Okay. I'll hand it to that *other* server, and ask him to pass it on?
Steve: (Sighs. Shakes head) They're going to see it all eventually so who cares how they get it.
(Okay, maybe not :) )
Steve: Pffft. No wonder you're rich.
Schmidt: (Looks around furtively. Whispers.) All in pennies - so it looks bigger. Yeah?
Steve: They'll count it, dummy!
Schmidt: Okay. I'll hand it to that *other* server, and ask him to pass it on?
Steve: (Sighs. Shakes head) They're going to see it all eventually so who cares how they get it.
(Okay, maybe not :) )
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